While I was turned off by the Jerry vs John part of the article, I too have to agree that it was well written and very interesting. Some of the points were very well made, most notably the fact that all music is played by someone other then the original and without that we would have lost a lot over the years.

Thus, when the NY Philharmonic plays a piece, are they just a cover band as compared to the original orchestra in Vienna that played that Mozart piece for the first time?????

I am guessing that the above example immediately invokes an indignant reaction in many people as how can you compare Mozart to the Grateful Dead. I would actually argue that the Dead's music rises to that level of sophistication. Not similar in terms of music theory and function, yet similar in terms of complexity and beauty.

So when Furthur plays it, is it just a cover. Or rather an interpretation?? I would say the latter. And that's my point, its simply a group of musicians (very good ones in IMHO) playing musical changes known to me as familiar songs.

And I find THAT extremely fun and satisfying.

Just another thought for you all on the JG vs JK thing............

I think one problem I have at times is the fact that I know Jerry's playing so well in the songs that when I don't hear something I am used to it "hurts". Meaning my mind and ear are expecting one thing and get something different. Not bad, just different. And it doesn't feel good, like my old blanket (read Jerry).

I know that many of my friends struggle with Bob singing Jerry's songs. It doesn't fit their ear. A similar situation.

So today I am listening to Mountain Song from last Sat night (really nice version.....faster then most.........like the tempo). And listening to some really nice playing by John and realize I have no preconceived notions in this song for his playing. So all that he does fits my ear perfectly. Why?? Jerry never played this song.

Perhaps that is a reason for the struggle some have with John's playing. Again, I love his work. I am musician and started playing the guitar when I was 13 (now 46), and realize just how hard it is to do and how easy he makes it look.

Keep up the good work John (had the pleasure of telling him that in person in Eugene last year).

Griff wrote:


great perspective, I admit I was floored the first time I saw Phil stage left, Bobby center and HUH ?? on the right, but these guys are keeping alive the one thing that helps me stay connected to my youth and the feeling of family and community that no other music can provide.
"if you get confused, listen to the music play"

not sure wrote:


I respect you opion. Obviously you don't go to furthur shows, your just one less person that we have to battle with trying to get a ticket to a SOLD OUT show. One less person that we have to fight with trying to get a good seat at a GA show.

How about Furthur Beacon Run 2012 vs. Furthur Summer Tour 2012-East Coast Leg- sounds like a better sound discussion.

not sure wrote:



Not to pick on anyone, but I gotta say I am amazed you could see the magic back then and so you went to 250+ show yet now you can't find it? I started a few years earlier than you brother, and for me, to hear Furhtur play Alligator, Viola Lee Blues or Good Morning Little Schoolgirl.... etc is a special treat and something you and I never heard live with the GD.

All I can say is I still hear that same magic and so do a lot of us. Is it as strong as with the GD or the same magic? Well I do know know nor do I care. All I know is I still LOVE the music, I still hear that magic and I am still driven to see as many shows as humanly possible. The scene is still very much alive. You just gotta believe it if you need it.......and of course, if you don't well just pass it on.

And ps, personally I saw every MSG show in '88 (9 including the benefit) plus every MSG show in '91. But I was only able to catch one Beacon show.

I will say I felt like we owned MSG, I learned every hidden stairway, etc and the guards let us dance. At my one Beacon show I got thrown off off the third level and almost thrown out of the show for trying to dance in the aisles. So in that respect, I had a better time at the MSG shows. But musically, even with Jerry breaking out the la bamba's and Brent with his Good Golly Miss Molly's etc, nothing touched me like the Brokedown Palace Furhtur played at the Beacon on April 18, 2012. Hearing it live brought me to tears like few other GD / Furthur songs have.

As a reminder it was Brent on Keyboards back then, and no backup singers, so it's a different sound today. Plus at the Beacon Bobby and Phil had just switched sides (assuming that effects anything). I personally like that Furthur is a bit jazzier than the GD. It reminds me of the MSG / Nassau Coliseum shows where Bradford sat in (like on the CD without a net).

kevin wrote:

Not Sure- Wow. Keep trying is all I can say-like others have said-the magic is there. To each his own though but you don't have to be an asshole about it man and shit all over John on a FANsite. BTW I saw DSO 2 months ago and did not like it, didn't feel it at all but I ain't going to slam them this shit can be so subjective to mood, set and setting. You must have wondered at different times during your 250 shows(?) if the inevitable lackluster show(s) was a sign the the good old GD were outta gas, or you or they were burned out, or whatever any myriad of things would lead to an unsatisfactory conclusion. I remember listening to Jerry(the interview before the latest meet-up @movies I think it was-talk about wanting to kill Phil because he was ruining it, fuckin up, Jerry was pissed but later when he played it back he realised it was HIS headspace, the music was good and Phil was not the problem at all.

Kevin, I would have agreed with you on your opinion about Ratdog after I recently listened to the 98 show from slims (yawn-barely any lead guitar-luv the horns though) but I kept digging around mainly cause illuminaughty is so passionate and from what I saw at TRI, but anyway last night and today has been all about,
archive.org/details/ratdog2007-07-24.dpa-4channelmix.flac16
I don't know if it was the peculiar energy I've read about at RedRocks or what but for me this show is the cat's pajamas, great mix of blues, jazz, horns, lead guitar, Bobbys voice, great music by any standard I'd say. Makes me sad on what I potentially missed out on every year when I thought Ratdog was just out-there being what I, wrongfully am happy to find-at least so far, thought was probably GDlite.

^^^^^ all music is subjective, I caught ratdog at least a dozen times, so obviously I do appreciate their style of music, just feel Furthur is far and away the best project post-jerry (although Phil and friends are also awesome), my tone was more a reaction to "not sure" than a firm opinion on ratdog (although them not performing in 3 years might be an indication of that project's status)

I would say on their off nights or "off songs" furthur can be very slow and lethargic. However, I would say that only accounts for at most 10 percent of the songs they play.

At Chicago a couple weeks ago they didn't have a single "off" song. Everything was played very well and on point, even when things got a little crazy. There was no "spacey comb-over" trying to mask bad playing, they were hot and ON FIRE.

NotSure it's very possible you could've caught a couple of their slower shows, especially if it was closer to when they started. Point is that they are on fire now, and one should not miss them if they have the opportunity to see them play.

Just to beat this dead horse (pardon the pun) a little furthur (again, pardon the pun) I have a few more points. Not sure has definitely made a stir here, nice job buddy!

Fake jerry issue, was keith fake pigpen, or brent for that matter, or bruce hornsby. No these people were great musicians and definitely not fake replacements of one another but unique representations of themselves.

obviously jerry is a different enchilada and one friend commented that it may be the audience members displeased with furthur are not hearing what they would expect to hear if jerry was handling it. but i think on the whole issue is difficult to handle but if you cant hear and witness the beauty of this band out on the highway continuing to high step into town, then it must just be a case of the new ones come in as the old ones go

first of all, a very well written piece and a fun academic excercise. thanks for sharing.

before i offer my brief thoughts on the Jerry vs. JK issue, i really liked the part of the article that discussed the "Roman copy". that was a great comparison to illustrate why a lot of people enjoy Furthur shows... because they still love the music and the original is not currently available to play for us on this earth. so as a result we celebrate the music through the copy that's available to us, although there are pieces of the original still in the equation (Phil and Bobby).

the first time i saw Furthur was on 06/03/11. my last GD show was in October of 1994 (last Jerry show was in 1995) and i did not see anything GD-related in between (no Ratdog, no Phil & Friends, no Other Ones or the Dead... NOTHING). i thought "what's the point, Jerry's gone, why do i want to go see anything GD-related without Jerry"? i was finally convinced to give Furthur a shot and went to see them at Shoreline. IT WAS WEIRD!!!! i really didn't know what to do at first. i thought "the music sounds good, it's cool to be experiencing live GD music again, and Phil and Bobby are up there". but my brain had a hard time processing what i was seeing versus what i was hearing. i decided there was no point in pondering too extensively while the show was happening, so i tried to forget that Jerry was not up there. i also told myself "this is NOT the Grateful Dead and don't try to pretend that it is... just have fun". so then i wanted to start dancing, but i immediately felt guilty. that was also very weird. i felt guilty for enjoying Grateful Dead music that was not being played by Jerry Garcia. for a few moments it felt like i was cheating on Jerry, somewhat disrespecting his memory for even thinking about enjoying a Furthur concert. it took me a few more minutes (ok, a whole set) to give myself permission to have fun. by the 2nd set i was feeling a little more relaxed, and was dancing and having fun (but it still felt weird). it took some time to embrace "the copy", but i eventually concluded that it was OK after all because i was paying homage to the music that i love so much.

since that 1st Furthur show i have seen the band a number of times and respect what they do. Phil and Bobby are definitely giving it all they got, and i think Jerry would approve. i've also come to respect and enjoy JK's playing, and i think he's doing a good job. does he (or has he ever) out-Jerry'd Jerry? definitely not, but that's OK. the more Furthur shows that i see the less i compare JK to Jerry. if you think of Furthur as the "new version of the GD" you're gonna be horribly disappointed. while they play GD songs, and their shows are in the same basic format (sans drums/space), Furthur is it's own band with a couple of original member of the GD. thinking of the band in these terms i'm able to enjoy the shows quite a bit. i'm not going to see Furthur to replicate the GD experience; i'm going to celebrate the music, and to see Phil and Bobby. what fun!

as for the comparison of the 1991 MSG run to the 2012 Beacon run, it's much more interesting to discuss how the GD in 1991 compare to Furthur in 2012 (without specifically focusing on Jerry versus JK). i did not see any of the MSG shows in 1991, but i did see over 20 shows in 1991. i also saw most of the Beacon run in 2012, so i feel somewhat qualified to comment. short answer, the GD in 1991 blow Furthur away (but that doesn't mean that the 2012 Beacon run wasn't good).

1991 was the last good year for the GD (IMO). Brent's loss in 1990 was a crushing blow to the band, but they rebounded strongly primarily because of Bruce Hornsly. Jerry LOVED playing with Bruce and it was obvious every night i saw them play together. Bruce was the best thing that could have happened to Jerry (and the Grateful Dead) after Brent's death, and for a breif time (even despite the drug problems) Jerry was very engaged most nights. he was having fun and he felt challenged. Bruce made the fat man work! and the fat man freakin' rocked with Bruce. while the band still had some good shows here and netween 1992 and 1995, Jerry lost that spark after Bruce left. it was a slow, steady and very sad decline over those last three years.

fast forward to Furthur in 2012 and there are some huge and obvious differences.

- TEMPO: as mentioned in the blog article, Furthur has slowed the tempo on many songs compard to 1991. it's a bit like the GD in 1976 (which is not one of my favorite years for ther GD). it would be interesting to compare the tempo of a song such as the Music Never Stopped in 1976 versus the Furthur tempo in 2012. i'll bet it's pretty close. i wish Furthur would speed up the tempo to be more in line with 1991 because i think the songs really shine and have a lot more snap at a slightly faster tempo.

- Drums/Space: Furthur has bagged drums and space, which for my taste is a very good thing. i did not dislike drums and space (and some nights it was really good!), but it took up a lot of time during 2nd sets and i would have rather heard more songs and more jamming.

- Song Selection: Furthur does songs that i never would have seen the GD do. pretty much everything in the GD song book is in play. still can't figure out why Bobby doesn't break out Lazy Lighning, but that's a whole separate discussion. Viola Lee, Born Cross-Eyed, Doin that Rag, the Eleven, King Solomon's Marbles, Easy Wind, Golden Road, etc. i love the fact that Furthur plays these songs and it's the main reason why i love going to see Furthur. it's old, but it's new. it's the same, but it's different.

given the choice i'd prefer that Jerry was still at the helm, but he's not. there are many ways to honor his memory and to keep the music alive. i respect those that cannot or will not embrace the Furthur experience, but i'm grateful that i have had the opportunity to take part in it.