i went back and forth on this last year, but at this point im not bent outta shape with ticket prices. i saw one $150 show last year, the Q in april, and a friend helped pay for it a little in exchange for me driving to TXR to get the ticket when he was unable to.

i wanted to go to one of the later Q shows or the haynes/scofeild/medeski lineup in the fall, but decided i couldnt afford it. i even had second thoughts and tried to score an extra a few days before the show, then decided again i couldnt afford it. looking at my finances now, i probably would have missed that $150 for about a week or two. i dont think now, months later, it would have made any difference in my personal finances...so i really should have gone. ive never seen sco with phil and love the jazz players in phils band. this happened with the furthur TXR shows too. thought i couldnt afford it, then realized later, sure, i would have been close to broke there around the time of the shows, but in the grand scheme of things it really wouldnt have mattered much. should have gone to the show!

and my final reason this year for not being bent outta shape over ticket prices - NYE! i paid over $100 face value to listen to furthur surrounded by 5000 people, alot of them loud and drunk, and the show wasnt mind blowing. it was good but the moments of true mindfucked brilliance only came a few times each set. now with the phil shows i have seen at TXR - the Q, telstar, and stanley jordan ramble come to mind, they typically RIP IT UP for the whole two sets. no filler, no slow plodding tunes. every song has a jaw dropping jam. so for $150 i feel like not only am i getting a better quality concert experience, but the music and the players are more consistently interesting. sure, furthur has taken me deeper than any of these TXR bands, but that does not happen every time or even every run, and i always have to sit thru several songs that dont seem very mindblowing.

so i will be happy to pay $150 if a lineup comes to town i REALLY like. but the $150 shows are not something id do all the time or do a whole run of. the rambles are $65, and i paid $25 or $35 for telstar. the $65 stanley jordan ramble was way better IMO than the $150 Q show i saw. the stanley jordan ramble was better than any furthur show i saw this year, and one of my favorite "dead" concerts ive ever been to. so i dont feel like price will dictate quality all the time, tho it does some of the time...hoedowns and allstars and terrapin family band are simply not built to reach the jaw dropping heights of a REAL dead band. i tend to skip those, even the free bar shows are getting a bit tired for me. its really more about cost of preformers, and im sure haynes or herring costs quite a bit more than jackie greene...so if players i want to see bad enough are in the lineup, ill thorw the money down for a show or two...

newyawker wrote:


I didn't take you comment as a 'complaint', but I have seen a large number of comments about the ticket prices and find them annoying. People seem to bitch and come to conclusions without knowing anything about what goes on behind the scene:

'They have piles of cash' - are you privy to their bank accounts? Do you know how they financed TXR and TRI etc?

Fixed costs - Even if they have money in the bank, they could quite logically be treating these ventures as businesses, perhaps as corporations, so that if they don't work out, they don't lose their money. I think you are 100% wrong in assuming they used their own cash. I can think of many fixed costs that a business can incur- mortgage, property taxes, insurance liability, employees, employees health care and 401k costs, renovations, security, operational expenses, internet connections, restaurant equipment, video equipment, sound systems, web site costs, ticket sales costs.

Subsidizing shows that make less money by making more on shows that do sell - Sweetwater issued a statement a while back that they couldn't keep having Mark Karan shows if people didn't show up. Having Furthur play could subsidize other shows

Complimentary tickets - how many tickets are given away to 'friends of the band' - another subsidy to consider.

The 'give me a free ticket' syndrome - Inexpensive tickets to me would result in people showing up at these shows looking for 'miracles'. This, in turn, would potentially annoy locals and create a problem for these venues.

Look at the demand for tickets to the Sweetwater for the furthur shows via the 'lottery' - you think lowering the costs would have been a win? Supply and demand should dictate an even higher price per ticket.

rippleish20 wrote:


My point in bringing this up is to determine if one thinks the prices are too high and this will create some elite group of people who can attend. Not all but some. How do you think this would have gone over in the 80's when the band was selling out 60k + seat stadiums. I do not think you would respond the same way. I am basing my initial premise on that fact. BTW, I do know what fixed costs entail. The intimacy is great, and can still be enjoyed if the tickets were 50 bucks. IT just appears to have evolved into something that the band was not founded upon. Thank you for the economics 100 lesson though.

The $65 rambles are incredible and I go to at least one when JK is in town. I have been to a furthur minus bob show. The tickets for 12/30/12 were more expensive and it was a huge show.

I agree with Sue that it seems all ticket prices are a lot more expensive now, and this seems to have happened overnight. Ticket prices for "almost" any concert were around the $20 range for a long time. It couldn't have stayed like that forever I realize. When ticket prices were that price, there were a few bands that would charge up to 5 or 6 times that much (rolling stones, pink floyd), but these were bands that weren't constantly touring, a tour every few years..maybe. I would still get the "cheap seats" for these shows...then that was about $50. These bands put a lot into the production of a tour, so even though that seemed expensive to me at the time, I was pleased I got to see a band I liked, that I may never have the opportunity to see again.

It was around 2001 or 2002, that I started to see a rise in ticket prices (across the board, in most cases). Billy Corgan gave some insight to this for artists not being able to make money from record sales and/or touring. Filesharing had changed the record industry in many ways. After the production costs of producing an album, and the cost to print/package/ship 1 cd is pennies on the dollar. And before filesharing, people were buying music, and a lot of it. The record industry got used to basically ripping us off. Billy saw a change happening and realeased the last pumpkins album "MachinaII" for free download on the internet, and said publicly that sooner than later, music would be free, given the state of the internet and modern technology. But bands would have to find a way to make money instead of relying on any payments/royalties from record sales. So maybe playing more live shows (with a higher ticket price), offering more things in band merchandising etc. Prince found a way to make money by playing concerts and boosting his album "Musicology" higher in the charts at the same time. When Prince hit the road for that tour, you walked into the coliseum they scanned your ticket and gave you a cd of the Musicology album. All those cd's were paid for in advance by Prince, and included in your ticket price (then around $60 per ticket). So he sold out a coliseum of 18,000. That's 18,000 cd's handed out that went straight to Billboard as 18,000 cd's sold. Thinking outside the box, and it worked. When most casual listeners would just download (for free) what they wanted, at that time (and today too) the only people who would go actually buy the cd would be the die-hard fanbase, and that happens in the first week or 2 after the album is released, then..nothing.

Now what I posted just has to do with ticket prices for almost everything, across the board. In this day and age with Furthur, I know that's different. We aren't talking about ticket prices being escalated because of a lack of album sales. (BRING ON THE ALBUM!!) But it is expensive to put on a show, the overhead with everything that has been posted earlier, is very high. I would like to see a show in an intimate place like TXR or SW, maybe.. I'm kinda claustrophobic, so I like room. If I can't move at least my arms I kinda freak out so being able to see these intimate shows in stream, for free (and I can move my arms) makes me pretty happy.

newyawker wrote:


I think $150 is expensive, but I don't see it as unjustified, which is my point. If one says I can't afford $150 I have no problem; I make OK money but I couldn't justify going to every show at TXR, etc. I personally think it's questionable, however, to argue that Phil and Bobby have 'loads of cash' or that fixed costs are minimal, when it's doubtful any of us know what the costs are. And JK, Jeff Chiimenti, etc are not likely to have 'loads of cash' - aren't they entitled to make a living? I don't get what you expect. What's a fair price for a show at TXR - $50? What happens if you make so little that you can't afford that, should ticket prices be $5? (I don't know if you have ever seen Festival Express, but concert goers rioted at one of the shows because ticket costs were 'outrageous' at $2.50 for the multiple band show).

I, personally, would rather pay $150 for a show at TXR etc than $75 for a show in MSG, even if it meant I couldn't go to every show. If you feel the costs are unjustified, then don't go.

As an aside, I went to hundreds of shows in the 80's. I would have gladly coughed up more money to see a shows or shows in smaller places.

I'm not going to take a side in this. If I can't afford it I simply don't go. That being said, I find this to be one of the most interesting threads posted in a while. The economics of being a Deadhead.

rippleish20 wrote:


Allen, perhaps we are talking past each other. Which happens alot in this day of electronic discussions. If a ticket to go see furthur is 150 bucks, what would one pay to see the GD? 300? 500? 1000? That is all I am trying to say. Perhaps you would have paid more in the 80's but I seriously doubt it would have been that much more. Why? Because the band was never promoted, nor part of the 'system'. They were anti establishment and went against the grain of pure capitalism. Now do not hear what i am not saying, I am not saying they should be commies and do everything for free. Everyone has a right to make a living. Do the math. They are not hurting for cash. This argument is not valid for the ticket prices being so high. I just do not see a correlation between intimacy and high ticket prices. You are acting as if Furthur shows at any other venue are like buying groceries in bulk man!!!! Seeing them at SPAC is like going to a Sams Club!!!!! Therefore tickets are cheaper. The question should not be if I feel the cost are unjustified. The question should be if they have to charge 150 bucks a ticket, should they be doing it. If their burden rate is that high then something else has to be done to make the product more affordable.

jodiah wrote:


This is all i am attemtping to discuss.. Thank you.

newyawker wrote:


clearly there is a demand to see the band in a smaller place at a higher price...are you suggesting they (phil and bob) should somehow subsidize this experience in order to be able to charge less?

newyawker wrote:


IMHO, neither you nor I, nor anyone else has a right to decide what someone "should" be doing as long as it doesnt cause harm to someone else. That is not fir anyone to decide. However you spend your money is your business, same as it is mine. Where do you draw the line? A mid level new car will cost over 20k. For that money i could see every show at TXR and Sweetwater or TRI for years and ride my bike everywhere i need to. That would be my choice. If you ate Ramen noodles for every meal to afford tix, that would be your choice. You cant put a "value" on tix, because "worth" is only determined by one factor:what someone is willing to pay. And i think its fairly obvious by the demand for these tix that plenty of people, myself oncluded, think its "worth" it. You or anybody else certainly doesnt have to. Just like any other decision you make with your money. This topic has been discussed several times in the past couple years. If anyone thinks Phil or Bob is out to rip people off, then IMO opinion they just arent paying attention. From what i can tell, these guys GIVE more than could possibly be expected. Not saying you think that way, just for anyone who does. But heck, they would still be entitled to that opinion

Based on my relatively little experience visiting California. EVERYTHING is more expensive, especially Furthur shows just outside SF in a rather tiny venue.

If a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk can doube or triple in price, why can't Furthur tickets ?????