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newyawker
Platinum Boarder
Posts:2079
When the goin gets weird the weird turn pro

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230569 1 year, 7 months ago
jodiah wrote:
I'm not going to take a side in this. If I can't afford it I simply don't go. That being said, I find this to be one of the most interesting threads posted in a while. The economics of being a Deadhead.


This is all i am attemtping to discuss.. Thank you.
'Nothin left to do but smile smile smile'
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spring mountain high
Senior Boarder
Posts:315

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230596 1 year, 7 months ago
newyawker wrote:


Allen, perhaps we are talking past each other. Which happens alot in this day of electronic discussions. If a ticket to go see furthur is 150 bucks, what would one pay to see the GD? 300? 500? 1000? That is all I am trying to say. Perhaps you would have paid more in the 80's but I seriously doubt it would have been that much more. Why? Because the band was never promoted, nor part of the 'system'. They were anti establishment and went against the grain of pure capitalism. Now do not hear what i am not saying, I am not saying they should be commies and do everything for free. Everyone has a right to make a living. Do the math. They are not hurting for cash. This argument is not valid for the ticket prices being so high. I just do not see a correlation between intimacy and high ticket prices. You are acting as if Furthur shows at any other venue are like buying groceries in bulk man!!!! Seeing them at SPAC is like going to a Sams Club!!!!! Therefore tickets are cheaper. The question should not be if I feel the cost are unjustified. The question should be if they have to charge 150 bucks a ticket, should they be doing it. If their burden rate is that high then something else has to be done to make the product more affordable.


clearly there is a demand to see the band in a smaller place at a higher price...are you suggesting they (phil and bob) should somehow subsidize this experience in order to be able to charge less?
Sugaree1
Platinum Boarder
Posts:1234

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230601 1 year, 7 months ago
newyawker wrote:
rippleish20 wrote:
newyawker wrote:
rippleish20 wrote:
newyawker wrote:
spring mountain high wrote:
it's basic math...the fewer people you can fit in, the higher you need to charge to cover expenses and make a profit...i doubt they're making a ton of dough on these gigs, but they have to cover a bunch of fixed costs and they have a right to make a living, and you have a right not to buy the ticket

eta: it's kind of lame to complain about prices when they just gave us four free HD gigs...so let me say this:

THANK YOU, BOB, PHIL AND FURTHUR


James, we can discuss things as this without you responding with a non sequitur. I am personally not complaining,nor am I lame. Just observing. I would also like to know what fixed costs you speak of. Do you think Phil and Bob went to a bank to get a loan when they have piles of cash? No cmon. Can we just have a discussion without any logical fallacies?


I didn't take you comment as a 'complaint', but I have seen a large number of comments about the ticket prices and find them annoying. People seem to bitch and come to conclusions without knowing anything about what goes on behind the scene:

'They have piles of cash' - are you privy to their bank accounts? Do you know how they financed TXR and TRI etc?

Fixed costs - Even if they have money in the bank, they could quite logically be treating these ventures as businesses, perhaps as corporations, so that if they don't work out, they don't lose their money. I think you are 100% wrong in assuming they used their own cash. I can think of many fixed costs that a business can incur- mortgage, property taxes, insurance liability, employees, employees health care and 401k costs, renovations, security, operational expenses, internet connections, restaurant equipment, video equipment, sound systems, web site costs, ticket sales costs.

Subsidizing shows that make less money by making more on shows that do sell - Sweetwater issued a statement a while back that they couldn't keep having Mark Karan shows if people didn't show up. Having Furthur play could subsidize other shows

Complimentary tickets - how many tickets are given away to 'friends of the band' - another subsidy to consider.

The 'give me a free ticket' syndrome - Inexpensive tickets to me would result in people showing up at these shows looking for 'miracles'. This, in turn, would potentially annoy locals and create a problem for these venues.

Look at the demand for tickets to the Sweetwater for the furthur shows via the 'lottery' - you think lowering the costs would have been a win? Supply and demand should dictate an even higher price per ticket.


My point in bringing this up is to determine if one thinks the prices are too high and this will create some elite group of people who can attend. Not all but some. How do you think this would have gone over in the 80's when the band was selling out 60k + seat stadiums. I do not think you would respond the same way. I am basing my initial premise on that fact. BTW, I do know what fixed costs entail. The intimacy is great, and can still be enjoyed if the tickets were 50 bucks. IT just appears to have evolved into something that the band was not founded upon. Thank you for the economics 100 lesson though.


I think $150 is expensive, but I don't see it as unjustified, which is my point. If one says I can't afford $150 I have no problem; I make OK money but I couldn't justify going to every show at TXR, etc. I personally think it's questionable, however, to argue that Phil and Bobby have 'loads of cash' or that fixed costs are minimal, when it's doubtful any of us know what the costs are. And JK, Jeff Chiimenti, etc are not likely to have 'loads of cash' - aren't they entitled to make a living? I don't get what you expect. What's a fair price for a show at TXR - $50? What happens if you make so little that you can't afford that, should ticket prices be $5? (I don't know if you have ever seen Festival Express, but concert goers rioted at one of the shows because ticket costs were 'outrageous' at $2.50 for the multiple band show).

I, personally, would rather pay $150 for a show at TXR etc than $75 for a show in MSG, even if it meant I couldn't go to every show. If you feel the costs are unjustified, then don't go.

As an aside, I went to hundreds of shows in the 80's. I would have gladly coughed up more money to see a shows or shows in smaller places.


Allen, perhaps we are talking past each other. Which happens alot in this day of electronic discussions. If a ticket to go see furthur is 150 bucks, what would one pay to see the GD? 300? 500? 1000? That is all I am trying to say. Perhaps you would have paid more in the 80's but I seriously doubt it would have been that much more. Why? Because the band was never promoted, nor part of the 'system'. They were anti establishment and went against the grain of pure capitalism. Now do not hear what i am not saying, I am not saying they should be commies and do everything for free. Everyone has a right to make a living. Do the math. They are not hurting for cash. This argument is not valid for the ticket prices being so high. I just do not see a correlation between intimacy and high ticket prices. You are acting as if Furthur shows at any other venue are like buying groceries in bulk man!!!! Seeing them at SPAC is like going to a Sams Club!!!!! Therefore tickets are cheaper. The question should not be if I feel the cost are unjustified. The question should be if they have to charge 150 bucks a ticket, should they be doing it. If their burden rate is that high then something else has to be done to make the product more affordable.


IMHO, neither you nor I, nor anyone else has a right to decide what someone "should" be doing as long as it doesnt cause harm to someone else. That is not fir anyone to decide. However you spend your money is your business, same as it is mine. Where do you draw the line? A mid level new car will cost over 20k. For that money i could see every show at TXR and Sweetwater or TRI for years and ride my bike everywhere i need to. That would be my choice. If you ate Ramen noodles for every meal to afford tix, that would be your choice. You cant put a "value" on tix, because "worth" is only determined by one factor:what someone is willing to pay. And i think its fairly obvious by the demand for these tix that plenty of people, myself oncluded, think its "worth" it. You or anybody else certainly doesnt have to. Just like any other decision you make with your money. This topic has been discussed several times in the past couple years. If anyone thinks Phil or Bob is out to rip people off, then IMO opinion they just arent paying attention. From what i can tell, these guys GIVE more than could possibly be expected. Not saying you think that way, just for anyone who does. But heck, they would still be entitled to that opinion
If that jubilee don't come, maybe I'll meet you, on the run
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kevin
Platinum Boarder
Posts:3289

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230605 1 year, 7 months ago
Based on my relatively little experience visiting California. EVERYTHING is more expensive, especially Furthur shows just outside SF in a rather tiny venue.

If a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk can doube or triple in price, why can't Furthur tickets ?????
-- smell every flower --
newyawker
Platinum Boarder
Posts:2079
When the goin gets weird the weird turn pro

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230608 1 year, 7 months ago
spring mountain high wrote:
newyawker wrote:


Allen, perhaps we are talking past each other. Which happens alot in this day of electronic discussions. If a ticket to go see furthur is 150 bucks, what would one pay to see the GD? 300? 500? 1000? That is all I am trying to say. Perhaps you would have paid more in the 80's but I seriously doubt it would have been that much more. Why? Because the band was never promoted, nor part of the 'system'. They were anti establishment and went against the grain of pure capitalism. Now do not hear what i am not saying, I am not saying they should be commies and do everything for free. Everyone has a right to make a living. Do the math. They are not hurting for cash. This argument is not valid for the ticket prices being so high. I just do not see a correlation between intimacy and high ticket prices. You are acting as if Furthur shows at any other venue are like buying groceries in bulk man!!!! Seeing them at SPAC is like going to a Sams Club!!!!! Therefore tickets are cheaper. The question should not be if I feel the cost are unjustified. The question should be if they have to charge 150 bucks a ticket, should they be doing it. If their burden rate is that high then something else has to be done to make the product more affordable.


clearly there is a demand to see the band in a smaller place at a higher price...are you suggesting they (phil and bob) should somehow subsidize this experience in order to be able to charge less?


NO, that is not what I am saying at all. I am only questioning the rationale to charge such a high priced based on the size of the venue as a barometer. I see no justifiable correlation. And thus far, that is the only basis I have heard.
'Nothin left to do but smile smile smile'
newyawker
Platinum Boarder
Posts:2079
When the goin gets weird the weird turn pro

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230613 1 year, 7 months ago
Sugaree1 wrote:
newyawker wrote:
rippleish20 wrote:
newyawker wrote:
rippleish20 wrote:
newyawker wrote:
spring mountain high wrote:
it's basic math...the fewer people you can fit in, the higher you need to charge to cover expenses and make a profit...i doubt they're making a ton of dough on these gigs, but they have to cover a bunch of fixed costs and they have a right to make a living, and you have a right not to buy the ticket

eta: it's kind of lame to complain about prices when they just gave us four free HD gigs...so let me say this:

THANK YOU, BOB, PHIL AND FURTHUR


James, we can discuss things as this without you responding with a non sequitur. I am personally not complaining,nor am I lame. Just observing. I would also like to know what fixed costs you speak of. Do you think Phil and Bob went to a bank to get a loan when they have piles of cash? No cmon. Can we just have a discussion without any logical fallacies?


I didn't take you comment as a 'complaint', but I have seen a large number of comments about the ticket prices and find them annoying. People seem to bitch and come to conclusions without knowing anything about what goes on behind the scene:

'They have piles of cash' - are you privy to their bank accounts? Do you know how they financed TXR and TRI etc?

Fixed costs - Even if they have money in the bank, they could quite logically be treating these ventures as businesses, perhaps as corporations, so that if they don't work out, they don't lose their money. I think you are 100% wrong in assuming they used their own cash. I can think of many fixed costs that a business can incur- mortgage, property taxes, insurance liability, employees, employees health care and 401k costs, renovations, security, operational expenses, internet connections, restaurant equipment, video equipment, sound systems, web site costs, ticket sales costs.

Subsidizing shows that make less money by making more on shows that do sell - Sweetwater issued a statement a while back that they couldn't keep having Mark Karan shows if people didn't show up. Having Furthur play could subsidize other shows

Complimentary tickets - how many tickets are given away to 'friends of the band' - another subsidy to consider.

The 'give me a free ticket' syndrome - Inexpensive tickets to me would result in people showing up at these shows looking for 'miracles'. This, in turn, would potentially annoy locals and create a problem for these venues.

Look at the demand for tickets to the Sweetwater for the furthur shows via the 'lottery' - you think lowering the costs would have been a win? Supply and demand should dictate an even higher price per ticket.


My point in bringing this up is to determine if one thinks the prices are too high and this will create some elite group of people who can attend. Not all but some. How do you think this would have gone over in the 80's when the band was selling out 60k + seat stadiums. I do not think you would respond the same way. I am basing my initial premise on that fact. BTW, I do know what fixed costs entail. The intimacy is great, and can still be enjoyed if the tickets were 50 bucks. IT just appears to have evolved into something that the band was not founded upon. Thank you for the economics 100 lesson though.


I think $150 is expensive, but I don't see it as unjustified, which is my point. If one says I can't afford $150 I have no problem; I make OK money but I couldn't justify going to every show at TXR, etc. I personally think it's questionable, however, to argue that Phil and Bobby have 'loads of cash' or that fixed costs are minimal, when it's doubtful any of us know what the costs are. And JK, Jeff Chiimenti, etc are not likely to have 'loads of cash' - aren't they entitled to make a living? I don't get what you expect. What's a fair price for a show at TXR - $50? What happens if you make so little that you can't afford that, should ticket prices be $5? (I don't know if you have ever seen Festival Express, but concert goers rioted at one of the shows because ticket costs were 'outrageous' at $2.50 for the multiple band show).

I, personally, would rather pay $150 for a show at TXR etc than $75 for a show in MSG, even if it meant I couldn't go to every show. If you feel the costs are unjustified, then don't go.

As an aside, I went to hundreds of shows in the 80's. I would have gladly coughed up more money to see a shows or shows in smaller places.


Allen, perhaps we are talking past each other. Which happens alot in this day of electronic discussions. If a ticket to go see furthur is 150 bucks, what would one pay to see the GD? 300? 500? 1000? That is all I am trying to say. Perhaps you would have paid more in the 80's but I seriously doubt it would have been that much more. Why? Because the band was never promoted, nor part of the 'system'. They were anti establishment and went against the grain of pure capitalism. Now do not hear what i am not saying, I am not saying they should be commies and do everything for free. Everyone has a right to make a living. Do the math. They are not hurting for cash. This argument is not valid for the ticket prices being so high. I just do not see a correlation between intimacy and high ticket prices. You are acting as if Furthur shows at any other venue are like buying groceries in bulk man!!!! Seeing them at SPAC is like going to a Sams Club!!!!! Therefore tickets are cheaper. The question should not be if I feel the cost are unjustified. The question should be if they have to charge 150 bucks a ticket, should they be doing it. If their burden rate is that high then something else has to be done to make the product more affordable.


IMHO, neither you nor I, nor anyone else has a right to decide what someone "should" be doing as long as it doesnt cause harm to someone else. That is not fir anyone to decide. However you spend your money is your business, same as it is mine. Where do you draw the line? A mid level new car will cost over 20k. For that money i could see every show at TXR and Sweetwater or TRI for years and ride my bike everywhere i need to. That would be my choice. If you ate Ramen noodles for every meal to afford tix, that would be your choice. You cant put a "value" on tix, because "worth" is only determined by one factor:what someone is willing to pay. And i think its fairly obvious by the demand for these tix that plenty of people, myself oncluded, think its "worth" it. You or anybody else certainly doesnt have to. Just like any other decision you make with your money. This topic has been discussed several times in the past couple years. If anyone thinks Phil or Bob is out to rip people off, then IMO opinion they just arent paying attention. From what i can tell, these guys GIVE more than could possibly be expected. Not saying you think that way, just for anyone who does. But heck, they would still be entitled to that opinion


James, I understand economics!!!! I am also not judging people who spend that amount to see a show. Yet according to your reasoning, if it sat 100 people, then the tickets would have to be higher. If it sat 50 then higher yet. And if they played for you alone, it would still be higher. And you would somehow justify it. And of course since its Bob and Phil you deem it worth that amount. Do you not see where that reasoning falls apart? When will it become consumer driven? Just because certain people will spend a certain amount on anything, does not make that product "worth' it. I am just hoping that there is more to the prices than intimacy and size of venue.

I agree they give alot. I agree the music is grand. Yet, I ask you what would you pay to hear the GD? For instance take any great show, and if Furthur gets a buck fifty, what would a GD show be worth? Certainly much more. Yet, could you imagine paying 700 bucks a ticket to see them? Even if 200 people paid that ridiculous amount, does not make it 'worth' that much.

As an aside, i am enjoying this conversation. Lets just keep the straw men to a minimal please!!!!!
'Nothin left to do but smile smile smile'
Last Edit: 1 year, 7 months ago by newyawker.
kevin
Platinum Boarder
Posts:3289

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230614 1 year, 7 months ago
I would pay $700 to see Jerry ONE MORE TIME all day long


-- smell every flower --
Sugaree1
Platinum Boarder
Posts:1234

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230617 1 year, 7 months ago
Im sorry NYawker but i see many fallacies in that reasoning. Yes if someone is willing to pay $700 to see Furthur than it is worth that to them. Yet you assume a GD show is more valuable. Maybe to you it is, and so it is true... For you. This is no straw man. If i said i would pay more to see Furthur than the GD, would i be wrong? Absolutely not. Why? Because that is my decision to make. And again you use the term ridiculous, as if it is up to you to decide what is ridiculous. Do you not see the simplicity in the point i am making? Do you think everybody alive would view all of your opinions as rational? I highly doubt, yet they are your decisions to make. Do i think any car is worth a quarter million dollars? Not for me and my life i dont. Yet i would never tell somebody that owns a ferrari that it is ridiculous to own one.
If that jubilee don't come, maybe I'll meet you, on the run
Sugaree1
Platinum Boarder
Posts:1234

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230619 1 year, 7 months ago
newyawker wrote:
As I mentioned in another thread, there is a small discontent amongst some heads regarding the price of tickets at these venues. What ye think?

My premature thought is they are quite steep.


And regarding this intitial post, i dont see discontent among deadheads. I see people angry that hey cant afford something and need to blame someone other than themselves for that. Atwell was spot on, if he made other decisions, he might be able to see every show. That is not his reality, mine either. I had a chance to possibly play pro football but i wasnt willing to put in the kind of work it takes get there. If i had, i could be VIP at every single show. Is it Phils fault i was too lazt to rehab my knees correctly? Not IMO
If that jubilee don't come, maybe I'll meet you, on the run
newyawker
Platinum Boarder
Posts:2079
When the goin gets weird the weird turn pro

Re: TXR/TRI/SW Ticket prices

#230624 1 year, 7 months ago
Sugaree1 wrote:
Im sorry NYawker but i see many fallacies in that reasoning. Yes if someone is willing to pay $700 to see Furthur than it is worth that to them. Yet you assume a GD show is more valuable. Maybe to you it is, and so it is true... For you. This is no straw man. If i said i would pay more to see Furthur than the GD, would i be wrong? Absolutely not. Why? Because that is my decision to make. And again you use the term ridiculous, as if it is up to you to decide what is ridiculous. Do you not see the simplicity in the point i am making? Do you think everybody alive would view all of your opinions as rational? I highly doubt, yet they are your decisions to make. Do i think any car is worth a quarter million dollars? Not for me and my life i dont. Yet i would never tell somebody that owns a ferrari that it is ridiculous to own one.



I honestly do not see any fallacies. Lets recap the answers given to justify charging 150 bucks

1) Intimacy/size of venue.

My argument against this premise is where would it end. If it sat 200 or 100 or 50 could one justify the price to be even higher? No, that cannot be justified.

2) Overhead.

My argument against that is 300 x $150.00 does not amount to much. And from what some have said there appears to be some attendees paying nothing.

3) Your worth argument.

Again, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder loses its weight once you realize that ability to pay does not equal worth of a product in this instance. One who cannot afford a 700.00 ticket can find the product has more worth than one who can.

4) to keep the throngs of 'brokers' ( people who are broke, have no money) looking to score a miracle ticket away from venue.

this reasoning actually carries the most weight. I am sure certain people in the area are just looking for an excuse to bring some problem as this to the city council zoning board.


I will say this though, anyone who would deem a Furthur show worth more than a GD show has a questionable sense of value. I should have paid a grand to see the band formerly known as the Warlocks in Hampton 89 then!!!! I paid 18.50 a ticket!!!!!

Perhaps the word ridiculous is not proper to use. For that i apologize.
'Nothin left to do but smile smile smile'
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