SunshineSue wrote:
The president doesn't make laws. The Congress does and it would take a supreme court ruling to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
If I may I might suggest that you're being narrow minded and focusing on just one issue. There are others to consider and I would suggest you'd be best served to consider the entire package on all issue. But, that's just me, the patronizing woman-hating, knuckle-dragger that I am.
Sheesh. No offense intended, really
tdog wrote:
tdog, you're arguing against yourself, plus you haven't addressed how you can justify your support of these positions. My point is I want government out of my health care decisions, there's no more invasive way to have government control peoples' lives, yet you're for it. And government money hasn't gone to fund abortions for 2 decades, so that argument is nonsense. Here's verbatim the Republican platform, and below that in Romney's own words are his feelings on Roe v. Wade and choice. More importantly, to say "conservatives love women" is really patronizing not to mention untrue. Find me one policy position conservatives have that support women, you won't be able to, not in terms of pay equality, reproductive rights or maintenance of the social safety net. Perhaps you agree with Paul Ryan that rape is "just another method of conception"? Or do you think the Personhood amendments that you support are helpful because they criminalize women who have an abortion and the physicians who perform them? Is your idea of a free America one where women and doctors are imprisoned for what is now a legal procedure? If these are your values, then that's certainly your right. But then you'd better stand up for them and explain how they're either Constitutional or moral, because I don't believe they're either.
Republican Party stand on abortion, 8/21/2012: "The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life
Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life. We oppose the non-consensual withholding or withdrawal of care or treatment, including food and water, from people with disabilities, including newborns, as well as the elderly and infirm, just as we oppose active and passive euthanasia and assisted suicide.
Republican leadership has led the effort to prohibit the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortion and permitted States to extend health care coverage to children before birth. We urge Congress to strengthen the Born Alive Infant Protection Act by enacting appropriate civil and criminal penalties on healthcare providers who fail to provide treatment and care to an infant who survives an abortion, including early induction delivery where the death of the infant is intended. We call for legislation to ban sex-selective abortions – gender discrimination in its most lethal form – and to protect from abortion unborn children who are capable of feeling pain; and we applaud U.S. House Republicans for leading the effort to protect the lives of pain-capable unborn children in the District of Columbia. We call for a ban on the use of body parts from aborted fetuses for research. We support and applaud adult stem cell research to develop lifesaving therapies, and we oppose the killing of embryos for their stem cells. We oppose federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
We also salute the many States that have passed laws for informed consent, mandatory waiting periods prior to an abortion, and health-protective clinic regulation. We seek to protect young girls from exploitation through a parental consent requirement; and we affirm our moral obligation to assist, rather than penalize, women challenged by an unplanned pregnancy. We salute those who provide them with counseling and adoption alternatives and empower them to choose life, and we take comfort in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives."
Republican stand on marriage equality: "Preserving and Protecting Traditional Marriage
The institution of marriage is the foundation of civil society. Its success as an institution will determine our success as a nation. It has been proven by both experience and endless social science studies that traditional marriage is best for children. Children raised in intact married families are more likely to attend college, are physically and emotionally healthier, are less likely to use drugs or alcohol, engage in crime, or get pregnant outside of marriage. The success of marriage directly impacts the economic well-being of individuals. Furthermore, the future of marriage affects freedom. The lack of family formation not only leads to more government costs, but also to more government control over the lives of its citizens in all aspects. We recognize and honor the courageous efforts of those who bear the many burdens of parenting alone, even as we believe that marriage, the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage. We embrace the principle that all Americans should be treated with respect and dignity."
SunshineSue wrote:
With all due respect, I think you're confusing the conservative platform agenda with conservative candidates personal beliefs. Please tell me where in the republican platform it talks about overturning Roe vs Wade ? Romney's running for president, not king. The president has a job description and it doesn't include making laws that align with his personal beliefs. Or, making laws of any sort for that matter.
On the other hand, where in the Constitution does it say that all taxpayers, regardless of personal beliefs, are required to fund abortion clinics ? I'm not saying I'm against funding them but maybe it ought to be left to the states and not the federal government. Where in the Constitution does it say that the federal government has the right to mandate through law that religious organizations fund things that go against their beliefs ? The 1st amendment explicitly says that the government does not have the right to mandate religion, whatever that may be.
Doesn't mean that I agree with everything that everyone wants to do but that's the point. It's called freedom. It's a slippery slope when you start allowing government to control our lives whether or not you agree with what the current laws mandate. Someone once said that a government powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take it all away.
What really pisses me off about modern day politics is the propaganda blown out by the corrupt news media in America. People are so misinformed about the issues and that's a tragedy. Regardless of what you hear from the Obama propaganda machine America is not going back to the 1950's in terms of civil rights. If you want that then go to some middle eastern countries where they believe in Sharia law.
Don't worry Sue, conservatives love women
tdog wrote:
I want government out of my life as much as possible. They have a limited job to do but it's become too big IMO under this administration (and the last for that matter) and they're into shit that was never meant to be according to the Constitution (healthcare, education, energy). Much of this was meant to be left to the states and not controlled by a centralized leviathan.
Peace.
If you want government out of your life, if you truly believe in the every-man-for-himself Republican philosophy, then why do you support a candidate who wants to control, at either the Federal or State level, an individual's personal decisions regarding health care and family life? That's a total contradiction as far as I can tell. You still haven't said how you can justify telling the women in your life that they're not capable of making their own health care decisions, including when and if to have children. Or why it's OK to discriminate against anyone in the LGBT community. Why do you agree with those positions? Again, I'm sorry if it offends some to say this, but a vote for Romney is the same as looking every woman in your life in the eye and saying "I don't care about you, your rights or your health. I'd rather see you die than be allowed to terminate a pregnancy." There's simply no way to justify the policy position of the Republican party when it comes to these incredibly important issues. You can bad mouth Obama all you want, he at least believes in the freedoms that conservatives only give hypocritical lip service to. Do you not care about personal liberty and freedom of choice at all? Or do you just want to make sure that not a single penny of your earnings go to help society at large, no matter what the consequences are? Seriously tdog, I really want to know how you feel about this.
I want government out of my life as much as possible. They have a limited job to do but it's become too big IMO under this administration (and the last for that matter) and they're into shit that was never meant to be according to the Constitution (healthcare, education, energy). Much of this was meant to be left to the states and not controlled by a centralized leviathan.
Peace.
If you want government out of your life, if you truly believe in the every-man-for-himself Republican philosophy, then why do you support a candidate who wants to control, at either the Federal or State level, an individual's personal decisions regarding health care and family life? That's a total contradiction as far as I can tell. You still haven't said how you can justify telling the women in your life that they're not capable of making their own health care decisions, including when and if to have children. Or why it's OK to discriminate against anyone in the LGBT community. Why do you agree with those positions? Again, I'm sorry if it offends some to say this, but a vote for Romney is the same as looking every woman in your life in the eye and saying "I don't care about you, your rights or your health. I'd rather see you die than be allowed to terminate a pregnancy." There's simply no way to justify the policy position of the Republican party when it comes to these incredibly important issues. You can bad mouth Obama all you want, he at least believes in the freedoms that conservatives only give hypocritical lip service to. Do you not care about personal liberty and freedom of choice at all? Or do you just want to make sure that not a single penny of your earnings go to help society at large, no matter what the consequences are? Seriously tdog, I really want to know how you feel about this.
With all due respect, I think you're confusing the conservative platform agenda with conservative candidates personal beliefs. Please tell me where in the republican platform it talks about overturning Roe vs Wade ? Romney's running for president, not king. The president has a job description and it doesn't include making laws that align with his personal beliefs. Or, making laws of any sort for that matter.
On the other hand, where in the Constitution does it say that all taxpayers, regardless of personal beliefs, are required to fund abortion clinics ? I'm not saying I'm against funding them but maybe it ought to be left to the states and not the federal government. Where in the Constitution does it say that the federal government has the right to mandate through law that religious organizations fund things that go against their beliefs ? The 1st amendment explicitly says that the government does not have the right to mandate religion, whatever that may be.
Doesn't mean that I agree with everything that everyone wants to do but that's the point. It's called freedom. It's a slippery slope when you start allowing government to control our lives whether or not you agree with what the current laws mandate. Someone once said that a government powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take it all away.
What really pisses me off about modern day politics is the propaganda blown out by the corrupt news media in America. People are so misinformed about the issues and that's a tragedy. Regardless of what you hear from the Obama propaganda machine America is not going back to the 1950's in terms of civil rights. If you want that then go to some middle eastern countries where they believe in Sharia law.
Don't worry Sue, conservatives love women
tdog, you're arguing against yourself, plus you haven't addressed how you can justify your support of these positions. My point is I want government out of my health care decisions, there's no more invasive way to have government control peoples' lives, yet you're for it. And government money hasn't gone to fund abortions for 2 decades, so that argument is nonsense. Here's verbatim the Republican platform, and below that in Romney's own words are his feelings on Roe v. Wade and choice. More importantly, to say "conservatives love women" is really patronizing not to mention untrue. Find me one policy position conservatives have that support women, you won't be able to, not in terms of pay equality, reproductive rights or maintenance of the social safety net. Perhaps you agree with Paul Ryan that rape is "just another method of conception"? Or do you think the Personhood amendments that you support are helpful because they criminalize women who have an abortion and the physicians who perform them? Is your idea of a free America one where women and doctors are imprisoned for what is now a legal procedure? If these are your values, then that's certainly your right. But then you'd better stand up for them and explain how they're either Constitutional or moral, because I don't believe they're either.
Republican Party stand on abortion, 8/21/2012: "The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life
Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life. We oppose the non-consensual withholding or withdrawal of care or treatment, including food and water, from people with disabilities, including newborns, as well as the elderly and infirm, just as we oppose active and passive euthanasia and assisted suicide.
Republican leadership has led the effort to prohibit the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortion and permitted States to extend health care coverage to children before birth. We urge Congress to strengthen the Born Alive Infant Protection Act by enacting appropriate civil and criminal penalties on healthcare providers who fail to provide treatment and care to an infant who survives an abortion, including early induction delivery where the death of the infant is intended. We call for legislation to ban sex-selective abortions – gender discrimination in its most lethal form – and to protect from abortion unborn children who are capable of feeling pain; and we applaud U.S. House Republicans for leading the effort to protect the lives of pain-capable unborn children in the District of Columbia. We call for a ban on the use of body parts from aborted fetuses for research. We support and applaud adult stem cell research to develop lifesaving therapies, and we oppose the killing of embryos for their stem cells. We oppose federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
We also salute the many States that have passed laws for informed consent, mandatory waiting periods prior to an abortion, and health-protective clinic regulation. We seek to protect young girls from exploitation through a parental consent requirement; and we affirm our moral obligation to assist, rather than penalize, women challenged by an unplanned pregnancy. We salute those who provide them with counseling and adoption alternatives and empower them to choose life, and we take comfort in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives."
Republican stand on marriage equality: "Preserving and Protecting Traditional Marriage
The institution of marriage is the foundation of civil society. Its success as an institution will determine our success as a nation. It has been proven by both experience and endless social science studies that traditional marriage is best for children. Children raised in intact married families are more likely to attend college, are physically and emotionally healthier, are less likely to use drugs or alcohol, engage in crime, or get pregnant outside of marriage. The success of marriage directly impacts the economic well-being of individuals. Furthermore, the future of marriage affects freedom. The lack of family formation not only leads to more government costs, but also to more government control over the lives of its citizens in all aspects. We recognize and honor the courageous efforts of those who bear the many burdens of parenting alone, even as we believe that marriage, the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage. We embrace the principle that all Americans should be treated with respect and dignity."
The president doesn't make laws. The Congress does and it would take a supreme court ruling to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
If I may I might suggest that you're being narrow minded and focusing on just one issue. There are others to consider and I would suggest you'd be best served to consider the entire package on all issue. But, that's just me, the patronizing woman-hating, knuckle-dragger that I am.
Sheesh. No offense intended, really
Freedom is truth.
