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tdog
Junior Boarder
Posts:215
Take a step back

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204404 1 year, 9 months ago
B-Rad wrote:
Tdog I told you before, here in Maine they allowed across state line insurance companies and our rates went up. We need to look to Canada where they spend half of what we do and have better health indicators then we do. Z is correct it will bankrupt the country. For profit health care is a scam....they will always give you extra tests, drugs, proceedures and hospitals are always at capacity. It is in there interest to overdiagnose...and the insurance companies have an interest to deny coverage. You can't fix these problems with more completion....it will only make it worse.


I didn't say that competition for insurance was the only answer. I believe that free market competition for all services works better than the government picking which side wins. Can you buy your car insurance from any insurance company and do you shop for the best price ? Same for homeowners insurance ? Why not healthcare insurance too ?

BTW, 'healthcare' is not the same thing as 'healthcare insurance'. I think the two get completely intertwined and confused by the talking heads in the media and the political class. We should concentrate on bringing the cost of 'healthcare' down and then deal with how to provide cheaper, better 'healthcare insurance' for those who can't afford it. I think we all agree on this Obamacare addresses the latter but not the former and that's why it needs to be repealed and replaced by something smarter and better and, yes, Romney/Ryan have some ideas on this.

The Obamacare law was legislated by only one political side forcing its will in Congress by arm twisting and deal making in order to get support and, therefore, doesn't have a single idea (tort reform, free market insurance, etc) from the other side. It's simply a shitty law as a result. If Obama is re-elected you'll get the full implementation of the law over the next several years. That in and of itself is a reason to vote the other side IMO.

What does Canada's healthcare system do to keep costs down ? I'm interested but don't know. Thanks.
Freedom is truth.
Last Edit: 1 year, 9 months ago by tdog.
Darxtar
Junior Boarder
Posts:31

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204424 1 year, 9 months ago
It's all about the Supreme Court. Do you really want a couple more ultra conservative corporate justices sitting up there for the next 40 years. That could really really hurt us. Just give it some thought.
You aint gonna learn what you don't want to know.
B-Rad
Gold Boarder
Posts:1121

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204442 1 year, 9 months ago
tdog wrote:
B-Rad wrote:


I didn't say that competition for insurance was the only answer. I believe that free market competition for all services works better than the government picking which side wins. Can you buy your car insurance from any insurance company and do you shop for the best price ? Same for homeowners insurance ? Why not healthcare insurance too ?

BTW, 'healthcare' is not the same thing as 'healthcare insurance'. I think the two get completely intertwined and confused by the talking heads in the media and the political class. We should concentrate on bringing the cost of 'healthcare' down and then deal with how to provide cheaper, better 'healthcare insurance' for those who can't afford it. I think we all agree on this Obamacare addresses the latter but not the former and that's why it needs to be repealed and replaced by something smarter and better and, yes, Romney/Ryan have some ideas on this.

The Obamacare law was legislated by only one political side forcing its will in Congress by arm twisting and deal making in order to get support and, therefore, doesn't have a single idea (tort reform, free market insurance, etc) from the other side. It's simply a shitty law as a result. If Obama is re-elected you'll get the full implementation of the law over the next several years. That in and of itself is a reason to vote the other side IMO.

What does Canada's healthcare system do to keep costs down ? I'm interested but don't know. Thanks.


First of all Romney has zero change of getting rid of Obamacare. To do so would take a supermajority of republicans in the Senate and they would have to keep control of the house. It isn't going to happen this election...maybe in four years when enough Senators are up for election but by then people will see the benefits and there will likely be 40 million more people with healthcare. Good luck taking that away from them or getting elected saying you are going to take it. So it is here to stay and it will be fully implemented.

Could Obamacare be better: sure. I would argue that there is just as much in there to bring healthcare costs down as there are provisions to ensure everyone can get health insurance. Health care costs have already started to come down. The provision that gives preventitive care without co-pays will lead to huge reductions in health care costs because people will get the help they need before they end up in the ER. Also the health insurance requirements will bring down costs by having people pay for their own health care rather than the $2500 per household we currently spend to pay for people who don't have health insurance who show up at the ER. Everyone on the right acts like it is a new cost to pay for the uninsured but we all pay for them already, and Obamacare gets them to pay for some of it themselves. It also brought down Medicare costs by $716 billion and applied 25% that back to more benifits for medicare and the rest to cover more people which will bring down medicare costs by allowing people to not put off medical treatment till after they turn 65. There are a whole bunch of pilot projects to try and get costs down and there is the medical advisory board. Dispite what Romney/Lyan have been saying it can't actually do anything but make recomendations to congress on which proceedures are used unnecessarially and other ways to cut costs.

Actually the entire plan is based on repulican plans...from the Heritage foundation which has been promoting the same plan to Bob Dole's plan to mitt's own plan in Mass. To say it is a one sided plan is not really true. In fact it doesn't even contain a public option that most Dems wanted. The GOP did not vote for it because they were set against giving OBama a big win. They held their breath like little children despite the good the law will do for the American people and all the policies in it they had previously supported.

Canada gets rid of waste and abuse by regulating the healthcare system and it lowers insurance cost because there isn't any. Most of the waste in the system comes from the insurance side who spend often less than 60% on actual coverage and up to 40% on processing. All this waste is removed in government ran systems which is why Medicare, medicaid and the VA have lower rates of inflation than private insurance in the US and they spend at least 87% on actual medical care.
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ZenoMarx
Gold Boarder
Posts:1004
PLEASE be quiet when the band is playing. PLEASE.

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204453 1 year, 9 months ago
B-Rad wrote:
Could Obamacare be better: sure.
I'm not sure why, but this is often missed by the average mind. You don't go into fixing something as complicated and entrenched as health care without making mistakes, needing to tweak ideas, etc. "It doesn't do this." "It doesn't do that." Wake up. Grow up. Get real. Mistakes will be made. Things will be missed. There will be casualties. Change always includes the element of casualties. ALWAYS. The pendulum is going to have to rock back and forth several times before a new system gets in tune with most of the old system and changes the course of all things.

It's either whiny rhetoric, ignorant rhetoric, or irresponsible rhetoric to think the first plan is going to be the answer to all things. But we do indeed need to walk through that door. RIGHT NOW.
You aren't interesting or clever when you write or speak in the lyrics of others. Rather, what are YOUR words?
tdog
Junior Boarder
Posts:215
Take a step back

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204563 1 year, 9 months ago
ZenoMarx wrote:
B-Rad wrote:
Could Obamacare be better: sure.
I'm not sure why, but this is often missed by the average mind. You don't go into fixing something as complicated and entrenched as health care without making mistakes, needing to tweak ideas, etc. "It doesn't do this." "It doesn't do that." Wake up. Grow up. Get real. Mistakes will be made. Things will be missed. There will be casualties. Change always includes the element of casualties. ALWAYS. The pendulum is going to have to rock back and forth several times before a new system gets in tune with most of the old system and changes the course of all things.

It's either whiny rhetoric, ignorant rhetoric, or irresponsible rhetoric to think the first plan is going to be the answer to all things. But we do indeed need to walk through that door. RIGHT NOW.


It's hopeless. Nobody listens. It's all a game to most, "average minds".

It's incredibly easy to see how societies fail these days.
Freedom is truth.
tdog
Junior Boarder
Posts:215
Take a step back

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204571 1 year, 9 months ago
B-Rad, no offense but you're the ultimate parrot for the democrat party talking points.

Re: Obamacare: polls clearly show that Americans don't want a public option (government controlled healthcare) or Obamacare as currently written. They want it repealed ! Does this matter to you ? Or, is it your attitude that anyone who disagrees with it can go to hell ?

What I'm suggesting with regard to Obamacare or any national healthcare system or any national policy in general is that it should be argued, discussed, analyzed before it's implemented into a law that affects every one of us. Obamacare was forced upon us by one side of the political equation that wanted to make history. Precisely how it differs from RomneyCare is that it affect every one of us permanently. The law will never be accepted because we don't trust how it was made and why should we ? The political shenanigans that went on to get it passed into law don't bother you ? They should.

I'll simply ask you this, do you want to live in a divided America ? You aren't going to convert people who disagree with you by using force. How about a thoughtful discussion and finding some common ground for a change ? It's possible but not with the current crop of politicians running things. I see no evidence that Obama is willing to give up his ideology to find common ground with any conservative democrat let alone a "republican". Irresponsible and pathetic. Dude needs to go.
Freedom is truth.
Darxtar
Junior Boarder
Posts:31

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204606 1 year, 9 months ago
We live in a divided America. Romney spoke of it to his mega wealthy immoral donors. (Check out the fat cat who hosted the party, it's shameful how he lives and the people who attend his orgies live) Do not forget forget about the 47%. Most people do not want the Affordable Health Care Act repealed. Facts matter. Romney does not have any policies that you can speak of. List any specific policy, just one specific thing, like one tax loophole he would close. The Economist magazine's current issue has a great article regarding this topic. Paul Kurgman also has a great article in today's paper.

The whole deficit thing is total BS. Which party sent us to war, the longest war in our history and put it on a credit card? That is absolutely unconscionable! Who wants these war's continued? Who has profited from the war's? Romney is not the answer especially when things (the economy) are getting better. Read Paul Krugman's article.

Lastly, Romney wants to cut education! Read while you still can. The national IQ of the country is 24 in the world and going down. Pretty exceptional don't you think.
You aint gonna learn what you don't want to know.
Last Edit: 1 year, 9 months ago by Darxtar.
DangerousDan
Senior Boarder
Posts:329

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204641 1 year, 9 months ago
People put so much coin in backing "there guy" to the fact where hatred comes from it. Support this support that...Maybe soon we will all realize thats the point. The illusion of choice. Don't participate it a two party system it simply doesn't work. Don't vote for the lesser of 2 evils. Freedom is an illusion within the constraints of society. Make your own rules, live by your own code.
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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B-Rad
Gold Boarder
Posts:1121

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204662 1 year, 9 months ago
tdog wrote:
B-Rad, no offense but you're the ultimate parrot for the democrat party talking points.

Re: Obamacare: polls clearly show that Americans don't want a public option (government controlled healthcare) or Obamacare as currently written. They want it repealed ! Does this matter to you ? Or, is it your attitude that anyone who disagrees with it can go to hell ?

What I'm suggesting with regard to Obamacare or any national healthcare system or any national policy in general is that it should be argued, discussed, analyzed before it's implemented into a law that affects every one of us. Obamacare was forced upon us by one side of the political equation that wanted to make history. Precisely how it differs from RomneyCare is that it affect every one of us permanently. The law will never be accepted because we don't trust how it was made and why should we ? The political shenanigans that went on to get it passed into law don't bother you ? They should.

I'll simply ask you this, do you want to live in a divided America ? You aren't going to convert people who disagree with you by using force. How about a thoughtful discussion and finding some common ground for a change ? It's possible but not with the current crop of politicians running things. I see no evidence that Obama is willing to give up his ideology to find common ground with any conservative democrat let alone a "republican". Irresponsible and pathetic. Dude needs to go.


Actually Tdog polls overwhelmingly show people support almost every aspect of Obamacare but not if you call it Obamacare. And as I mentioned already most provisions in the bill came from conservative proposals. So no, it was not a single party shoving it down your throat.

Do you know how the Bush tax cuts were passed? Look into it before you claim acceptance of a law has anything to do with how it was passed.

The idea that Obama hasn't reached out to the GOP is pure fox bullshit. He tried over and over, but as mitch Mcconnell said right after obama was elected the number one goal of the GOP for the next four years was to say no to everything. That is why they doubled the use of the filibuster in the last four years. Why did he sign the extension of the Bush tax cuts or the Hugh cuts in spending if he was so ideological? You will see in his second term when they are forced to say yes to something that Obama is one of the most bipartisan, moderate presidents in recent history.

Like I said though there is zero chance of a repeal of Obamacare in the next few years. Get over it.
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B-Rad
Gold Boarder
Posts:1121

Re: Dead Heads for Romney 2012

#204663 1 year, 9 months ago
The only problem Dan is that it actually matters. With Romney having over half his foreign policy team made up of Bush admin neocons Romney will very likely invade Iran. So it matters quite a bit.
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