Seriously wish there were hours and hours more of this candid conversation.
If you have not heard---
Listen to this interview.
www.archive.org/details/jg1981-07-10-Interview.shnf
If you have not heard---
Listen to this interview.
www.archive.org/details/jg1981-07-10-Interview.shnf
"and/or it will require a change that hasn't come before"
